“Shrinking” has always asked a lot of its cast. The Apple TV comedy can be very funny, but grief, trauma, addiction, illness and forgiveness are baked into its DNA. A character introduced for a few laughs can eventually be asked to carry something far heavier, which makes casting actors who can grow with the series particularly important.
Created by Bill Lawrence, Jason Segel and Brett Goldstein, “Shrinking” entered its third season with one of television’s strongest ensembles, led by Segel, Harrison Ford and Jessica Williams, alongside Christa Miller, Michael Urie, Luke Tennie, Lukita Maxwell and Ted McGinley. Season 3 expanded that group with Jeff Daniels, Isabella Gomez and Sherry Cola, while Michael J. Fox made an emotional return to acting as the series continued to explore Paul’s experience with Parkinson’s.
Helping assemble that cast are Debby Romano and Brett Benner, whose work on “Shrinking” has now earned them consecutive Emmy nominations. The success of the series has certainly changed what is possible when they begin putting together a list of actors. Benner admits they can now “reach higher than you might normally reach,” but that doesn’t necessarily mean chasing the biggest name available.
In fact, Benner says the opposite can be more exciting. “Debby and I have always said the most interesting part of the job for us is finding the actors who maybe are not the big names, who are the discoveries, who are the people breaking in or just being discovered,” he says. “That’s a lot of times more interesting for us in terms of the job.” It is an approach that has paid off as actors including Tennie, Maxwell and Rachel Stubington have seen their characters grow considerably since the show began.
What Romano and Benner cannot entirely plan for is how well those pieces will fit together. The affection among the “Shrinking” cast is apparent whenever the group appears together offscreen, something Benner describes as “a certain alchemy that you hope works.” Romano also credits Segel with helping establish that environment. “Jason Segel is an A-rated person and is all about supporting the cast,” she says. “Having him as a number one who is pretty much egoless really contributes to that.”
Awards Focus spoke with Romano and Benner about building and expanding the ensemble of “Shrinking,” what they saw early on in actors like Maxwell and Tennie, and why comedy may be harder to cast than drama. They also discussed this season’s additions, the unexpected path that brought Ford to the series and why, even after decades in the business and consecutive Emmy nominations, discovering the right actor remains the part of casting that excites them most.
Awards Focus: This is now two straight Emmy nominations for “Shrinking,” for Seasons 2 and 3. What does that consistency mean to you, to see that repeat recognition from the Television Academy?
Debby Romano: It’s great. Truly, I think we’re honored to have it. We’re honored to be nominated with the people that we’re nominated with, our peers who are fantastic. I don’t think we take any of it for granted. We just appreciate it, and it’s a pretty amazing thing.
AF: There are four main cast additions in Season 3 I want to talk about. We’ll start with Jeff Daniels. At this point, this show certainly doesn’t need more star power. What made Jeff the right actor for this role? Do you ever worry about adding someone who is such a recognizable face to viewers?
Romano: I think that’s a great question, and yes. Brett and I both worry about overcasting, so to speak, because we have so many great actors offered up to us. But we do want it to be real in our world.
With Jeff, we made a list, but he was always the frontrunner because, hello, his vast résumé and he can do it all. But also, he really looks like Jason, and that’s always important to Brett and me, to keep the family resemblance there. We were really lucky that he was available and it worked out. He had a great conversation with Bill Lawrence, who pitched him the role, and there we go.
AF: With Isabella Gomez, what were the priorities in finding the right actor for that role? Do you do chemistry reads for roles like that, where she’s often paired with an actor like Luke Tennie?
Romano: We have done chemistry reads in the past. Certainly the year before, Jessica did reads with the actresses who were auditioning to play both her mother and her sister. That was very important for her, to be a part of the process, and it was great.
We didn’t for this particular role have chemistry reads with Luke, but we wanted to find someone who was going to be diverse, who was going to have that kind of winning personality and a great energy to bring to this show.
We had met Isabella. We did a reboot of “Head of the Class” for HBO Max that she became the lead of, and she was so fantastic. The Doozer team was familiar with her, and honestly, we’re so lucky because beyond being just a great actress, she has such an incredible light to her and a warmth and a genuineness that are really critical for that part.
AF: Sherry Cola’s storyline devastated me this season. I know her primarily as a comedic actress, so what had you seen from her, either before or in the audition, that convinced you she could handle such a dramatic role?
Romano: She wanted to play a dramatic role and came in on a Zoom with us and said that it was important to her to show this other side. She was so game. The fact that we got to Zoom with her, because we didn’t know her before it, and she is the warmest person.
Brett Benner: First of all, we were just thrilled she even wanted to go through the process because it would have been very justified in some places for her reps to be like, “She’s going to be offer only.” But she was so game, and she’s just the best.
Just sitting in a room with her, a Zoom room, I should say, to start, like Deb said, she was so game. She was so willing to do it. We really wanted someone from the AAPI community. She talked later about how important it was for her to showcase what this character was going through for the community.
The whole way, we just felt so lucky to get her. Of course, the producers fell in love with her. It’s just a testament to what a great actress she is, how game she was and the fact that she’s just a fantastic person. We were really lucky.
Romano: I just feel like she’s that person that an audience can get attached to quickly. We knew what the storyline was, so when the rug gets pulled out for the audience, you know it’s going to have some weight to it.
AF: Michael J. Fox was probably an easy casting decision, but he hadn’t acted in so long. Obviously, this was a very emotional moment for the cast, for him and for viewers. How did it all come together?
Benner: It was all Bill. They have that longstanding relationship since “Spin City,” and they are bonded in a way that none of us will really understand, but it’s deep.
What we heard was Mike called Bill up and was like, “You’re doing a show about Parkinson’s, and you didn’t invite me to be on it?” [Laughs]
So that was easy. He wanted to be part of it. Having watched the dailies before the episodes aired and just hearing about what the set was like those days, everyone was so energized and thankful to be there and be a part of it. It’s really a special thing that is next level.
AF: I often think the job of casting directors is that you have to go find someone. It sounds like in some cases here, you’re getting people who want to be on the show because “Shrinking” is a show they love. Is that common in the industry, or is that unique to this experience?
Benner: It’s really unique. First of all, the difference even between a streamer, which is referred to a lot of times as prestige television, and regular network television is that if you’re making a list, you can go to places that you might not normally have been able to go to before. You can put a name down that normally, if you were on a network show, there would be no chance.
Here, it is a different thing, and that’s kind of invigorating and also a little bit freeing, that you can reach higher than you might normally reach. It doesn’t always mean it’s going to work out. There are some people who still, for whatever reason, may not want to do it.
I think one of the things that’s most interesting for us is, despite that, Debby and I have always said the most interesting part of the job for us is finding the actors who maybe are not the big names, who are the discoveries, who are the people breaking in or just being discovered. That’s a lot of times more interesting for us in terms of the job.
Romano: For sure. Like Rachel Stubington, who plays Summer on the show. Her role has grown so much from that first season, and she’s so relied upon for the big comic relief. She is a comedic genius. We’re so lucky to have her.
AF: “Shrinking” is a comedy, but its characters deal with heavy topics like grief and forgiveness. Going back to Season 1, what did you see in Luke Tennie and Lukita Maxwell’s auditions that convinced you they could grow with these characters wherever the writers took them?
Romano: I saw Lukita in an HBO show called “Generation.” In the first episode, she’s a teenager who’s pregnant and about to give birth, and she’s in a mall and doesn’t know that it’s going to happen. So they pull a kiddie pool into the bathroom. Just the way that she went through giving birth was hilarious.
At the same time, that has literally nothing to do with her audition because her audition was so grounded and real. It was like there was no acting going on. That’s very important to a lot of our producers, to find these very grounded, lived-in performances. She did that.
Then Luke, Brett and I always kind of muse about this because that role, somebody with PTSD having come back from being overseas, we saw a lot of auditions where people were angry. That was the first thing that you saw. With Luke, he was the opposite. He was super introverted.
We had a conversation, Brett and I, because we were bringing him back to producers, and we were like, “Should we say something to him about what they are expecting? Or should we just let him do his thing?” We decided to just let him do his thing. And the producers were like, “Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.”
AF: Is it harder to cast for the comedic side or the dramatic side when you’re looking at each role?
Benner: Comedic, for sure. I think comedically gifted people are a much harder commodity to come by.
Bill once said to us way back when we were doing the initial “Scrubs,” “I can always fix someone in editing. I can make them funny in editing.” There’s truth to that on a single-camera comedy. On a multicam, that’s much harder to do, obviously, because you’re live.
We see a lot of extraordinary actors who are phenomenal people that we love and love to watch in other things who just aren’t gifted comedically. I say “gifted” because it is a special gift, I think.
We talk a lot about the music of the scene and hearing the comedy, and a really gifted comedian knows how to play those things.
I will say also, to the credit of our writers, when someone is cast on the show, they are very adept in terms of the way that they learn to write for people and learn how to bring out their strengths so that they can score. I think that’s a testament to them and their skills, to be able to mine that from the actors who are cast and see what things they can get out of them for maximum benefit.
AF: The casting of Harrison Ford still feels like one of the biggest “aha” moments I’ve had watching television in the last several years. It was like, wait, Harrison Ford is going to be in a TV comedy? Obviously, he’s been funny in films, but the comedic rhythm of “Shrinking” is very specific. At the time, did casting him feel risky, or did your conversations with him make it an obvious choice?
Romano: I think Bill was so sure that he was the right way to go. We had a big list, and like Brett said, because we were on Apple, we felt like we could put a name like Harrison Ford down.
Our first conference call with all of our producers was about that role. We talked about a bunch of different guys on the list, and then Bill said, “There’s one name on this list that I want to pursue, and you guys are going to think I’m crazy, but he’s my neighbor and I just want to drop the script off and see if he would ever have any interest. It might take some time, so we’ll have to be patient.”
He happened to be in London where Brett Goldstein was, so Brett Goldstein did all the heavy lifting, which I guess wasn’t really that heavy because I think Harrison fell in love with the role immediately. But yeah, it doesn’t get any better.
AF: Casting is finally starting to get its flowers, including recognition at the Oscars. As casting directors, what do you look for when you’re voting for your peers? What separates great casting from good casting in the eyes of someone who does this every day?
Benner: That’s a really great question. I think it depends on some of what it is. With the Casting Society of America and their awards, they’ll do pilot casting and then series casting, which really differentiates, and it’s great. You don’t have that luxury with the Emmy Awards. So you’re just looking at whatever that body of work is for that particular year.
Pilots can sometimes be overlooked where great casts take place, or vice versa. Following the guidelines, it’s looking at what was done that year, what stood out that year.
Sometimes that’s hard to discern. I’m someone who gets caught up in the whole emotion of the show, of what I’m watching, and then I have to remember, “Okay, it’s for these particular things of this particular year.”
I think this year there’s almost an embarrassment of riches in so many of these categories. Frankly, even our category alone, every one of those shows had just a phenomenal season.
Romano: I think it’s a very interesting process because to be nominated, you’re just in a big group. People pick based on what they know, and you get all the FYC screeners, so you watch what you watch and then you vote.
But once you’re nominated, all the nominees have to put together a reel that shows what you’ve done that year and what you want to showcase as to why you think you could win. So it’s all about picking the right episodes, picking the right scenes and showing what you have.
AF: As casting directors, what’s the moment when you feel most validated? Is it when your recommendations get agreed to? Is it when you see them execute on screen and they blow you away? Or is it awards and nominations?
Romano: I think awards are the least. First of all, you nailed it, which is that we are the gatekeepers of who producers might see audition or think of for a role, but we don’t make the final decision. We can influence and we can press, but it’s their decision.
I think the most rewarding part is when somebody gets the role, when everyone is excited about casting someone. At that point, they’re going to deliver. We don’t have a lot of situations where they’re like, “Yeah, they weren’t really that good,” because we have great directors and we have great writers and all of that, so we’re lucky in that way.
But the awards are the bonus, the cherry on top. It’s wonderful, but it’s certainly not our day to day.
Benner: It’s also so unique. She and I have been doing this for so long and gone through almost our entire careers without that kind of special recognition, and it’s been fine. It doesn’t change anything. Like Debby said, it’s a cherry on top of a sundae.
AF: This is probably an impossible question given how fabulous the cast is, but looking back over the three seasons, is there a casting choice that you’re most proud of or that you felt like you had to fight for the most and are now so happy you were able to make a convincing case?
Romano: I would say, honestly, it’s someone you haven’t seen yet, and she’s in Season 4. Stay tuned. [Laughs]
As I think about it more, when we had to cast Derek, Brett, Bill and I had already been through two big pilots with Ted for roles he didn’t get, dating back to the first “Scrubs” and then another show about 10 years ago.
Ted is such an amazing actor, and when we had this role of Derek, Brett and I called Bill and were like, “We owe it to Ted. We need to ask him.” We knew he would be great because Derek was originally conceived as a guy who had a few lines, a couple of scenes in each episode, and was a recurring guest star.
We knew that he would slay. He’d be so great. Bill heard us, discussions had to happen after that, but then he got the role, and look at how far he’s come. It’s amazing.
No one could be more grateful than Ted McGinley. Oh my God, he can’t believe that this is all happening. He adds so much to the set and the show, so we’re so lucky.
AF: Every time I’ve seen this cast together at junkets or events, there’s clearly a lot of genuine affection between them. How much can you account for that dynamic during the casting process, and how much is simply luck in bringing together the right group of people?
Benner: Certainly, you hope. [Laughs] There’s just a certain alchemy that you hope works, and we don’t know initially.
Bill Lawrence has always said he has a “no asshole policy,” and he really wants that. You try to discern and do the best homework that you can do in terms of people, but you just never know.
When it works, it works great. We did get very lucky with this group, who have very strong affection for each other. I think it really becomes evident and has been able to foster the relationships offscreen that, in a lot of ways, mirror what’s happening onscreen.
It is kind of special, and I think we’re more than well aware of that because there are many shows that don’t necessarily have that. It’s really cool.
Romano: I think it also starts at the top, and Jason Segel is an A-rated person and is all about supporting the cast. He’s involved in every element of the show, but I think having him as a number one who is pretty much egoless really contributes to that.
AF: Congratulations to you both. I really enjoyed the conversation.
Romano: Thank you, Ben. This was fun.
Benner: Thank you so much.