“Pluribus” may be built around Rhea Seehorn, but to understand Carol Sturka, we first have to understand the person she loses. Vince Gilligan created the Apple TV sci-fi series with his “Better Call Saul” star in mind, giving Seehorn a long overdue showcase as a romance novelist who suddenly finds herself among the few people immune to the Joining, an event that connects nearly all of humanity into a single, seemingly content consciousness.
Before that happens, we meet Carol alongside Helen, her partner and manager, played by Miriam Shor. Their time together is surprisingly brief. Helen dies amid the chaos of the Joining in the premiere, leaving Shor with only a handful of scenes and later flashbacks to establish a relationship that becomes essential to understanding Carol. Those early moments show us a version of Carol that largely disappears with Helen: vulnerable, loved and understood by someone who has clearly been beside her for a very long time.
It is an enormous assignment for an actor with relatively little screen time. We have to believe these women have shared a life and recognize the shorthand that comes with it, while also feeling the enormity of Carol’s loss when Helen is suddenly gone. There is little exposition to help Shor accomplish that. Instead, she and Seehorn build the relationship through small gestures, familiar frustrations and the ease between two people who know each other intimately. “You had to understand Carol’s love for Helen, and you had to understand the enormity of the loss,” Shor says. “It needed to continue to resonate and reverberate.”
Helen’s absence does exactly that. As Carol struggles against a world that has surrendered its individuality, the Others possess something she desperately wants: Helen’s memories. That access also exposes things Helen never intended Carol to know, including her private feelings about Carol’s writing. For Shor, it gets at one of the more unsettling ideas buried within the show’s larger premise. “Even in the most intimate relationships, there are privacies,” she says, noting how harmful the loss of that privacy can be.
Shor’s brief but consequential performance has earned her an Emmy nomination for Outstanding Guest Actress in a Drama Series. She is one of five “Pluribus” performers recognized this year, alongside Seehorn, Karolina Wydra, Carlos-Manuel Vesga and Jeff Hiller. The series earned 18 nominations overall, including Outstanding Drama Series and nominations for Gilligan’s writing and directing.
Spend a little time talking with Shor and it quickly becomes clear that she is not simply an actor who happened to land a role on “Pluribus.” She is as much of a fan as many of the people watching it. Our conversation was filled with laughs, theories and genuine enthusiasm for the questions Gilligan’s series leaves unanswered. A self-described sci-fi nerd, Shor seems perfectly happy to disappear down the same rabbit holes as everyone else trying to figure out exactly what “Pluribus” is saying about individuality, community and what we sacrifice to have either.
Awards Focus spoke with Shor about creating Helen and Carol’s relationship with Seehorn in such limited screen time, filming Helen’s frightening final moments and why portraying grief through a queer relationship mattered to her. She also shared her own theories about the series, imagined what she might do if she were among those immune to the Joining and explained why the enthusiastic response to “Pluribus” gives her hope that audiences still want television willing to ask difficult questions without providing easy answers.
Awards Focus: Congratulations on the Emmy nomination. Where were you when you heard, and what was your immediate reaction?
Miriam Shor: I was on the phone with a friend who was like, “Did you know you’re nominated for an Emmy?” And I was like, “No, come on. What are you talking about? No.” Then all of a sudden I got all these messages on my phone, and I was like, “Oh, actually, I have to go.”
It’s crazy. I’m already in my favorite show, working with some of my favorite people, and it’s a dream job. Then someone’s like, “Oh, also, too, as well, you’ll be nominated for an Emmy.” I mean, it’s the best frosting a cake could ever have.
AF: “Pluribus” is such an interesting show. How did you become involved, and what did you receive for your audition?
Shor: I auditioned. That’s what I do. [Laughs] I got sides that were not a scene from the show. They were thematic. It was thematically a scene similar to the scene in the bar with Carol, but it was like Schmarol and Schmelen are talking. [Laughs]
What’s interesting is I just think their writing is so good that I knew what the characters needed from each other from the scene. I understood the scene even though I didn’t understand or know the world it was taking place in. I didn’t know who these people were, but I remember reading it and being like, “Oh, I know what this woman means to this other woman and what she’s doing for her here.” So I auditioned and got dang lucky.
AF: It’s a Vince Gilligan show, so maybe the critical response isn’t surprising but have you been surprised by how strongly audiences have embraced it?
Shor: I’m surprised. I’m actually surprised because it’s a complicated show, and it doesn’t give you answers. It asks you to do work while you’re watching it, and I love that. As a viewer, it is exactly my kind of show. It hits all of the sweet spots for me.
But we’re told this narrative that TV viewers are lazy and they want everything spoon-fed, and they like schlock and the kind of stuff that hurts my feelings on reality TV. That that’s really what people want. And who is served by that narrative? Not the viewer.
So to see a show that is complicated and is a reach, and is like, “Come with us on this crazy journey,” and to see people not just embrace it but get really overjoyed by theories, I mean, the kind of dorkiness that I am fully embracing as a sci-fi nerd and lover. But also just someone who loves a complicated story that asks me to participate as a viewer, not just sit back and drool. [Laughs]
AF: You’re only in a small portion of the first episode, but Helen’s relationship with Carol becomes pivotal to understanding Carol for the rest of the season. Were you conscious of how much that relationship needed to accomplish in such a short amount of screen time?
Shor: It was very clear to me that Carol’s grief over the loss of Helen was going to be pivotal to the entire show. You had to understand Carol’s love for Helen, and you had to understand the enormity of the loss. It needed to continue to resonate and reverberate.
What I lucked out on the most was that I had to be in love with Rhea Seehorn, and that was effortless for me because she is incredibly lovable and also such a generous person that we really created something together. There was kismet in some ways because we did sort of fall in love with each other. We were old friends who just met the moment we said our first words to each other.
It was instantaneous, and that’s not something you can prepare. Once we had that, we really worked together to create something. It’s very moving that people have responded to it.
As I’m doing it, I can’t be like, “This is huge and pivotal to the entire season.” I have to just live in it and be there for her, but be the person that, if that person is then gone from Carol’s life, you just don’t know how she’s going to make it through that loss and that grief. It was so important. It really needed to be a part of the show.
When you care about a story and understand that story, you feel really beholden to it. So I’m really glad that people seem to have responded. I’m also very grateful and thankful that we’re looking at that loss and grief through a queer relationship.
AF: This isn’t the first time you’ve portrayed a queer relationship. Does that inform how you approach Helen and Carol differently than you might another romantic relationship?
Shor: It’s not. But you are informed by the world we live in. If Helen is Carol’s protector, which she very much is, what are you protecting her from? There are things in the world that queer people have to go through that others don’t, and of course that informs their relationship.
It’s not the only thing that informs their relationship. It’s multifaceted and multidimensional, but of course that’s there. But also the gift of saying a queer relationship is a human relationship. This is what we’re trying to understand as humans. There’s rhetoric that does not agree with that out there in the world, of course. So I’m really grateful that this allows for that beauty, that humanity.
AF: We see relatively little of Helen and Carol’s history. Did you and Rhea create a backstory together, or did Vince and the writers provide more about their relationship?
Shor: First of all, it is in the writing. There are so many beautiful clues. Like in the scene where they’re going to get in the car at the airport and Carol goes to get in the driver’s seat, and there’s a breathalyzer. That whole interaction.
It’s often wordless. Or the scene in the airport where, instead of addressing it, Helen’s like, “I gotta get gum.” There are all these beautiful, unspoken clues that allow you to understand the way they operate for each other, what they can do for each other and how long they’ve known each other. That is right in the writing. Rhea and I did it together.
Then on top of it, there’s some devastating backstory that points to how awful what the Others are bringing to Carol is, which is the knowledge that Helen didn’t care for that book. That should never be exposed, ever. Even in the most intimate relationships, there are privacies. The fact that privacy is no longer there, to me, that scene is really beautiful because it illustrates the importance of privacy, even within an intimate relationship, and what a loss it is not to have it anymore and how harmful it can be.
There are lots of things within the storytelling. The trust issue, there’s some trust lost between these two women. Right there is a big hint that there’s a lot of history, and anyone who’s been in a long relationship understands that. So you kind of fill in those blanks for yourself. That’s part of the fun, but it’s fast. You don’t have a lot of time.
AF: The first episode plays almost like horror, particularly during the Joining. Helen has this brief but frightening moment before dying. How difficult was it to find the right physicality and expression for that scene?
Shor: Thank you for bringing that up because it is challenging. You want to get it right, and it needs to be subtle, but it needs to convey many things.
It is really nightmarish, the physicality of the Joining and the seizing that people are doing and convulsing, which is horrific. I think the reason that first episode is so horrific is you need to understand that it’s a severe trauma that happens. Then the rest of the show is very different. It’s that quiet grief post-trauma. I think it’s really beautiful because it’s trying to get you into that frame of mind.
That moment is Helen when she stops seizing, joins and then dies. It’s so small, but it’s everything. It’s really complicated. You’re out there on a truck in the middle of the night, it’s freezing, you’ve been working for hours, and you have so much to do physically. You just want to get it right.
AF: I actually didn’t register the Joining during my first viewing. Do we know why Helen dies rather than simply joining the Others?
Shor: The makeup is quite extraordinary. When she falls, she experiences blunt trauma to her head. If you see the way the makeup is, that’s the makeup artist really understanding what that can look like on someone and where there’s internal bleeding. You can’t survive that. Blunt trauma to the head can be very deadly.
That fall is so astonishing. Our stunt people were incredible. I watched that stunt and was like, “What’s the trick?” And they’re like, “The trick is she’s going to fall.” What? That’s crazy. [Laughs] Obviously, they have things to keep her safe, but I was like, “Uh-uh. I can’t watch it.” It’s so upsetting.
They did such a good job of making it so upsetting and yet really watchable, and then bringing humor into it. Tonally, it’s a really huge swing. I’m so excited by it as a viewer and as a fan.
AF: You weren’t necessarily present for everything that was filmed. When you finally saw the completed series, how much did its visual and sonic identity surprise you?
Shor: It’s incredible. It’s also a lot of incredibly talented people showing what they can do because they believed in the project. Every single person. It’s such a community effort. It’s a communal effort. Making a TV show is never a solo effort.
You’ve got extraordinarily talented people who are so excited by it that they want to get it right. And holy crap, did they. There’s so much to it. There are risks. There are huge swings. The storytelling itself is a huge swing. There’s no guarantee that it’s going to work.
I think the reason it does is because everyone is doing such extraordinary work, and Vince surrounds himself with such exciting, talented, interesting people.
I’d also love to give a shout-out to the background actors, first and foremost, because the show does not work without them. They are such a necessary part of the puzzle, and I think sometimes they’re treated poorly or as an afterthought. That was never the case on the set of “Pluribus.” There was respect for everyone and everyone’s craft.
AF: A question for Miriam rather than Helen: If you were one of the 11 people who survived and could live anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Shor: What is great that you seem to intuit is that I spend a lot of time thinking about this show as a fan. [Laughs] I’ve got multiple treatises and theories stacked on top of each other.
That’s an interesting question. That’s more like Samba’s character of, “How am I going to just enjoy this time?” I would spend a great deal of time curled up in a fetal position in a corner somewhere, so that’s where I would live for a while.
Those scenes where Carol enjoys herself and swims in a pool, like, “Okay, let me have my favorite meal at this beautiful place and listen to this music I love. I’m going to enjoy this,” speak a lot to what loneliness feels like. That idea of, how do I find joy in the face of this gaping loneliness without a person?
I live in New York City, so obviously I like to be in environments with people. I love people. I would just be devastated. I would not know what to do.
I think where I would go would be places that are solitary because it wouldn’t be so clear. A beautiful mountain view, where nature would be able to feed me as opposed to human interaction.
AF: You’ve mentioned being a fan of the show, and “Pluribus” has inspired plenty of theories. Have you heard any that made you think about the series differently?
Shor: I’ve heard the ones we’ve all heard, like AI. What I think is that it is such a good story that all of the things we fear can be imprinted on it. The big questions can be imprinted on it.
I had an interview with someone shortly before my audition where they were like, “What are you thinking about these days?” Just in general, theoretically. I said, “I’m really interested in this tension between the individual and the collective because I think it’s something we have to talk about and we struggle with. It’s the main struggle. How do we stay true to ourselves and yet live with each other?”
Then two weeks later, I got this. So that, to me, is the theory. That’s my theory, by the way. The most interesting theory because it’s mine, Ben. [Laughs] But that is a theory that really speaks to me right now.
I love that there isn’t a good answer in the show. Sometimes the Others are kind of right, but sometimes Carol’s right. You’re like, “Both are right. How do I hold these two things in my brain?” And you have to because that’s the assignment of life.
AF: You’ve already had such a varied career, but if this Emmy nomination opens even more doors, are there roles or worlds you still want to explore?
Shor: There are a million things I haven’t explored. Any kind of person in the world is a role you could play.
I love being part of a new show and creating that world. I love it. It’s so exciting. I’ve always loved that. I come from the theater, and I’ve always loved doing that in plays. People have asked, “What are those roles in plays that you would always like to play?” Of course, there are many a Shakespeare role I’d like to play.
But the excitement of having to create a new world together, I always love. Those roles are being written right now. I just really enjoy that process with incredibly talented people.
Kindness and generosity on the set of “Pluribus” were everywhere. It was a real boon to be reminded that that is the best way to create anything, through that kind of humanity and humaneness to each other and respect. There’s a false narrative out there that to be a true creator or a true leader, you have to be some sort of tyrant. Again, who does that narrative serve?
I just want to keep doing this. It’s been great that people keep inviting me to that party, and now they’re inviting me to an actual party. RSVP, I accept.
I’ve had so much good fortune to create such interesting, challenging stories, and I just want to keep doing that. Stories that are going to resonate and ask people to play the “what if” that can then affect our lives in a real way.
AF: For someone who somehow still hasn’t discovered “Pluribus,” what’s your 15-second elevator pitch for why they should watch?
Shor: I think it’s a show that is about the big questions, but it is a thrilling show that will allow you to have questions about your own experience as a human being on this planet. That’s what I want from a show.
But it’s a unique show. You’ve never seen a show like it.
AF: That’s very well said. Congratulations again.
Shor: Thanks so much. Thanks for your questions.