‘Shrinking’ editors James Renfroe and Sarah Lucky reveal how they balance comedy and emotion while editing’ season 2 of the hit Apple TV+ series. Renfroe cut the odd-numbered episodes, while Lucky handled the evens.
“I like to think of stuff as jigsaw puzzles,” Renfroe said of the challenges editing the season 2 premiere. “That one had a lot of pieces, and so to find the right picture to present there was a challenge and was a good time.”
“I say it’s timing,” Lucky added, when asked about cutting comedy with emotional depth. “Also, for me, I always say it’s very much like real life, having the heavy with the light. It almost is like a natural flow.”
In conversation with Awards Focus, Renfroe and Lucky offer an inside look at shaping ‘Shrinking’ season 2—from finding the right tone in complex emotional scenes to weaving in cast improvisation without disrupting the show’s rhythm. They reflect on their close collaboration with showrunner Bill Lawrence and how building a believable emotional world helps elevate the show’s comedic and heartfelt moments.
‘Shrinking’ started as a comedy series where a grieving therapist, Jimmy (Jason Segel) breaks the rules and tells the blunt truth to his clients. In ignoring his own training and ethics, Jimmy starts changing people’s lives as well as his own. The series has certainly grown into a true ensemble comedy series where the writers have found the right balance between work and home life.
Created by Bill Lawrence, Brett Goldstein, and Jason Segel, ‘Shrinking’ stars Segel, Harrison Ford, Christa Miller, Jessica Williams, Michael Urie, Luke Tennie, Lukita Maxwell, and Ted McGinley. Co-creator Brett Goldstein joined the cast in a recurring role.
Seasons 1-2 of ‘Shrinking’ are streaming on Apple TV+.
Awards Focus: It’s so nice to meet you. How are you doing?
Sarah Lucky: Good.
James Renfroe: Doing well, thanks.
AF: ‘Shrinking’ is one of the best shows on TV right now and season 2 is even better then the first season. How did you first become attached to working on the series?
Renfroe: Yeah, I had worked with Bill and one of the producers, Kip, years ago on a pilot. Maybe eight years ago—that also actually was starring Brett Goldstein. He was one of the characters in it. Anyway, so I was on a different show. That pilot didn’t end up going and so we separated.
When ‘Shrinking’ season 1 came around, Kip reached out and asked if I was available. At the time, it was Jason, Brett and Bill involved. When he circled back around, he was like, Harrison Ford’s involved. James Ponsoldt, who was a directing EP the first season, is a person I went to high school with. He was a year ahead of me. We played a little baseball together. I was pinching myself. Is this real? Is this real?
The first season got going and that was how I got involved with the first season. That’s obviously spilled over into the second season.
Lucky: I got involved with season two because I had worked with Randall, who’s directing/producer of the show on ‘Grace and Frankie’. He had recommended me and then Matt Tarses, who did Bad Monkey with him, also knew me from a Zach Braff TV show, ‘Alex Inc.,’ and he also recommended me.
AF: How did you balance out the editing duties and choosing who works on each episode?
Lucky: We didn’t have a choice.
Renfroe: I wish we could choose. (Laughs) Yeah, it was just separated evens and odds. I did the odds and then Sarah got to do the evens.
Lucky: Yeah, we just went back and forth. We rotated.
AF: I double-checked the press screeners before this interview and neither of the final two episodes display the end credits yet. IMDb also doesn’t have the information. Who edited episode 11 and 12? (This interview was conducted in December, prior to the final two episodes airing on Apple TV+)
Lucky: Yeah, they’re probably not gonna put that up till they’re aired.
AF: It’s such a good season.
Renfroe: I agree. This season, having been a part of both seasons, as both an employee and a fan, the second season, I just loved.
Lucky: I love the second season, too, but I wasn’t part of the first, but just as a viewer, and I don’t know if I’m partial to being part of the second season, but it is a really good season.
AF: Yeah. I really feel like the show has found that right balance between how much to show at work and how much to show in the personal home life.
Renfroe: Yeah, I think we also have more meat to the bone on some of the side characters. Brian, who really just crushes this year. Michael Urie’s character, there’s more for him to do. I think that provides a lot of story and, as a result, jokes. Liz, I think her storyline this year with Derek and stuff is great.
Lucky: Gabby has more, too.
Renfroe: Yeah. I think by filling in those areas with this story, it really has allowed us to exit the therapist’s office more often.
AF: Is there a scene or sequence during season 2 that provided the biggest challenges during in the editing process?
Lucky: For me, it would be episode eight, just because there was a lot in the flashback—trying to highlight the most important parts of that story, but also keep it moving and not make it feel too long. I would say that episode overall was a challenge, but it actually worked out really well at the end.
Renfroe: I think for me, partly it was challenge, partly that’s the fun of it. The sequences that I had the most fun with were in 201—the crash sequence was the flashback when Jimmy shows up and finds the wreckage. That scene was like, here’s a bunch of material and you just get to find it and build it. I’m looking for those little shots of the feet or the steam. I like to think of stuff as jigsaw puzzles. That one had a lot of pieces and so to find the right picture to present there was a challenge and was a good time.
The end sequence of that same episode, as Paul is giving the therapy to Sean, we’re intercutting that with Jimmy discovering Louis in the lobby. He subsequently is going home and having that moment with Alice. I think it sets up a lot of stuff for the story of the year. That episode also had the stuff with Grace, which I think was a nice way to continue last season’s stuff without it weighing down this season.
Lucky: I think that is what James said—the best part of editing sometimes, because I also feel like it’s a puzzle. Putting it together and figuring out—it’s the fun of it or is the fun of it.
Renfroe: Yeah. I throw on some music.
Lucky: Get in there.
AF: Did you finish editing one episode before moving on to the next or were you editing multiple episodes simultaneously?
Lucky: We would finish the editor’s cut usually. James, you can speak to this. I know sometimes it depended on if we were overlapping, but a lot of the times, they would shoot in order. They’d block, let’s say, episode one and two and two and four, if they did that. We’d finish our cut mostly before we went on to another one. But then we went back and revisited with the director or with Bill, too. We didn’t really finish anything until late in the year, I guess.
Renfroe: Yeah, mid-year. Yeah, it wasn’t until after shooting. There were times—episode seven, the ocean scene where they’re out to sea—that scene came in separately. I was in dailies on another episode ,that one was sitting unfinished, and then that scene came in. Tat was a pretty complicated scene. They were standing on hoses and sitting on pool noodles. On set, they had water hoses pumping warm water in for them.
Lucky: Yeah, cause it seemed to be freezing.
Renfroe: Yeah, and they were out there forever. All of the crew were talking about how they were so sore in different places because they were on the boats. The boom operator, Doug, got a cheer from everybody in the dailies. Anyway, yeah, on this show, because of the way it was blocked shot and because of the way that the producers get into the edits, we do have an opportunity to really finish our cuts and move on. I would say that’s typically true with other shows as well. Because of the schedule we have, we’re not buried in producers cut on one while we’re also getting dailies on two. I think this scenario, we did the first five and then I think added hiatus maybe.
Lucky: Yeah, we added hiatus.
Renfroe: I had one, three, and five all going at the same time and definitely was feeling like I had dailies ready sitting there for five—I wasn’t touching them and was feeling the stress. (Laughs) But self-imposed because we didn’t end up looking at five until much later.
Lucky: Yeah, we actually had time, but—
Renfroe: Yeah, we’re still used to trying to hit schedules. At least for me, I have a lot of network sitcom background and on that, you really are churning.
Lucky: I also don’t like to see bins that I need to cut sitting there.
Renfroe: Yeah, exactly.
Lucky: It must be crazy. I’m like, oh my G-d.
Renfroe: I just think about them at night.
Lucky: I do, too. Like a horrible to do list. You’re like, Oh my G-d, there’s 10 bins just sitting there.
Renfroe: I’ve calculated the minutes that it’s going to take just to watch the footage.
Lucky: I’m like, how big are they?
AF: I imagine there’s a bit of room for improv on the series. Did that have any impact on the editing process?
Lucky: Yeah, it always does because you like to find those little golden moments. I feel like Ted McGinley always has little gems that you want to add. Gabby, for sure—Jessica, she always has stuff that you know you want to add. Even Jason does. But it definitely affects your timing. There are sometimes you’ll find a joke that you’re like, I have to use this joke and you’ll cut a whole scene around trying to make it work. Sometimes it doesn’t, but you do what you can to just get that line in there. It definitely affects it. It’s not as crazy ad-libbing as you would think, but there are definitely some gems.
Renfroe: Yeah, it tends to be—it’s not like they walk into the room and it’s all made up, right? We don’t really run into that. For instance, there was a scene when Gabby is talking to Keisha and she’s just gotten off the scene, the text with her mom saying that she needs help with the sister. She’s like, “I have this problem and I’m like a Black Michael Phelps,” or whatever is the line that she says. That chunk of that line was improv, but the rest of the line was relatively scripted. I find that the things that feel like they flow and end up working the best are those quick little ads. It’s one of the things that Ted McGinley so good at.
Lucky: He is really good.
Renfroe: There was another scene where everybody’s around the table, and Jimmy’s trying to decide what number of hottest person he is on the scale for Gabby. Somebody’s like, Oh, and that guy had a big D. Derek’s like, “Can’t be that.” Delivery on it is just so good. That was one of those tentpoles that I had in this in my selects. I was like, try to use this. This is so funny.
Lucky: Yeah. You’re like, this is staying, I don’t care.
Renfroe: It’s moments like that. It’s nice. I like to try to include stuff because I think if the actors are ever watching the episodes, it might encourage them to continue to do it. I think it keeps the characters and the scenes fresh in a way that—
Lucky: And natural, yeah.
Renfroe: That feels believable, exactly.
AF: Ted just steals every scene he’s in.
Lucky: He’s hilarious. In the hospital scene when they were talking about the dick tube and he’s like, “Lucky.” It’s off mic, but I’m like, that has to be used. It’s just the smallest little ad.
AF: How closely were you working with Bill Lawrence, Jason Segel, and Brett Goldstein?
Lucky: Jason doesn’t really come into the room. He gives notes from afar, but Bill we’re working with on a daily basis. Brett came in here and there. He came in on Episode 6 because he wrote it, so he was there doing a cut on that. But he’ll pop in. Did he pop in with you, James? He pops in here and there.
Renfroe: Yeah, he was in the room. I got him more last season, also, because I had his episode. I think he was doing stand-up. He’s got things he’s doing. I think he was doing stand-up for part of it. For part of it, they’re shooting so then he’s obviously not coming in. The writer’s room was already going by the time we were finishing later episodes.
Lucky: He came in for the one he wrote, and then he popped in for the finale here and there. But Bill, we’re with every day. Once they’re done shooting.
Renfroe: Yeah. Bill is fantastic. As a person, he’s lovely. His knowledge of how to shape a joke and how the edit works—it’s really nice for us because we’re not having to explain anything. If he gives a note and we’re trying it—as soon as we’re like, I don’t know about this, he might also be behind us, being like, “I don’t know about this.”
Lucky: He’s very smart in editing.
Renfroe: For experimenting, he’s seen enough that he knows when stuff is clicking and when stuff isn’t. He’s also really nice in the sense that he’s open to collaboration. Whether it’s ideas of ours or his assistant or a passing PA, if anybody has an idea, he’s open to hearing it and he seems to value their opinion pretty well.
AF: Both of you came into the series having worked on other comedies. What’s the trick to editing a comedy series with as much emotion as ‘Shrinking?‘
Lucky: I say it’s timing. Also, for me, I always say it’s very much like real life, having the heavy with the light. It almost is like a natural flow. Do you agree, James?
Renfroe: Yeah. For me, I think regardless of whether you’re working on this or any of the other comedies, our job is to create a world for us to dive into and believe. If we have performances in in this show that are too broad or even sometimes too somber, we have to find that balance so that when we’re watching Shrinking versus watching—I worked on a show called ‘Superstore.’ What performances were acceptable in that world were different than what are acceptable here. It’s a combination of what’s on the page and then how do our our actors bring those characters to life.
For us, the challenge is can we take the best of all of that stuff and present a world that is believable. When I respond to notes or when I talk about the characters, it’s never Jason—it’s always Jimmy, it’s always Paul. I would have a much easier time walking up to Paul than Harrison Ford (Laughs) because I’ve spent hours and hours and hours with Paul, and minutes being like, that’s Harrison Ford. (Laughs) Once you’ve established and created this believable world, then it is life. Life has ups and downs and in the worst of times, somebody will crack a joke. It might soften the mood or lighten the mood. It might provide that relief that we need in some of those harder moments, just like somebody might bring up something serious while you’re at a baseball game, thinking you’re doing nothing special.
Lucky: They can feel it. I think they’re also good with their timing of it. The actors do a very good job—Michael Urie is a perfect example. Even when the most serious of moments are heavy, he comes up, not him, but the lines come up, and he just plays it so perfectly in and out of joke to serious, joke to serious. I think it was your episode—no, it is your episode when he’s talking to Jimmy about, What’s wrong with me?
I don’t remember what episode that is. There’s a lot of funny there. But it’s also serious, and he plays it so well, the balance. I think it is like when you’re talking to your friend in real life, and you’re like, Why do I do this? Why do you do that? And then you throw in a joke—it’s very natural for humans to do that.
Renfroe: Yeah. I think, certainly again, the benefit of this second season is everybody’s had time to understand what the show and the world—
Lucky: And their character.
Renfroe: Yeah. The actors and actresses are more in tune. I think Jessica gave an interview—maybe with The Hollywood Reporter—but she was saying how she was worried coming back into the second season that she wouldn’t necessarily remember the Gabby character. It’s like putting on these clothes that you haven’t worn in a while to see if they still fit, to see how you need to move around in them in order to make them feel like they’re yours again. I don’t know if she said all of that, but I think she said some of that.
Lucky: It sounds good.
Renfroe: I think because everybody was able to end up in those clothes or that skin again, we had a better idea. Certainly, the pacing of the show was something that we fought against all season one. When we came into season two, there were some changes that were made to the way that they shot stuff. There was changes to the way that we might approach things. There were hints on, you might need to use this as a way to speed stuff along. We had some of the answers so that it made the process a lot smoother and it allowed us to spend more time making sure that the world was more believable. Some of the performances—just in the dailies, I’m laughing and crying.
Lucky: I’m watching my own dailies and I’m crying.
Renfroe: Michael Urie, when he was talking to—I think Ava is the character’s name—the soon to be mom. In the dailies, as he’s saying why he wants this and what Charlie wanted versus him. I was just like, you’re a grown man, stop. But then also, he does the thing to close the trash can drawer—I’m dying laughing from it, too. It’s a pleasure to work on.
Lucky: I found it’s a pleasure to work on the show, for sure. There’s so many awesome aspects.
AF: Since you mentioned playing high school baseball with James Ponsoldt earlier, at what point did the professional baseball dreams end and the Hollywood dreams begin?
Renfroe: (Laughs) Great question. I was a baseball pitcher—pitching was the thing I did. I did that and cross country. I couldn’t throw harder than 84 so the dreams of—even with Greg Maddux throwing whatever he was throwing, I knew that I didn’t have much of a chance, but I did enjoy it. I didn’t know editing was a job, honestly, until I was in college. I grew up with a single mom so my brother, sister, and I watched a lot of movies and TV. I saw the thing, but it seemed about as attainable as professional baseball player or president or something. It didn’t feel like a real job.
Lucky: You’re like, it still doesn’t.
Renfroe: (Laughs) Yeah, sometimes. I do still pinch myself and I thin,. you’re in shorts, listening to music, having a good time putting this puzzle together. But yeah, no, probably by the time I was 15, I knew that wasn’t really a shot, but it was still fun to do.
Lucky: He still has the dream.
Renfroe: I do. I bring a ball. I was playing catch with my kid this morning. I was like, this is what I wanted.
AF: Maybe we just need to get someone to write a baseball movie and have you edit it.
Lucky: There you go.
Renfroe: Yeah, please.
Lucky: You can live the dream.
AF: Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure.
Lucky: Thank you.
Renfroe: Nice to meet you, Danielle.