Theo Rossi has spent much of his career playing characters who are difficult to forget. As Juice Ortiz on “Sons of Anarchy,” Hernan “Shades” Alvarez in Marvel’s “Luke Cage” and Dr. Julian Rush in HBO’s “The Penguin,” Rossi has often operated inside large ensembles and even larger worlds. He can move comfortably into studio fare like Netflix’s “Carry-On,” but some of his most interesting choices lately have been happening on a much smaller scale.
Rossi currently has three independent films at various stages of reaching audiences: “Come With Me,” “The Saviors” and “Bruton.” The films are very different. “The Saviors,” from director Kevin Hamedani, places Rossi alongside Adam Scott and Danielle Deadwyler in a darkly comic thriller about paranoia and suspicion. Vincent Grashaw’s “Bruton” casts him as Bryan Bruton, a man whose life is transformed by his experience in the Florida prison system. “Come With Me,” released September 4 by Vertical, gives Rossi perhaps the most psychologically internal of the three roles.
In Aaron Harvey’s “Come With Me,” Rossi plays Simon Ward, a working-class man whose life begins unraveling after a home invasion, trouble at work and personal loss. Looking for some sense of control and belonging, Simon becomes increasingly consumed by provocative radio host Dalton Kirby (Ron Perlman), whose rhetoric begins providing an explanation for frustrations Simon has been unable to make sense of himself. It’s a story with obvious relevance at a moment when media, podcasts and online communities can become places where people searching for connection also encounter voices eager to give their anger a target.
Rossi was particularly interested in that search for belonging. “He just wants to find his place, and he’s looking anywhere for it,” he told Awards Focus. Simon’s vulnerability, as Rossi sees it, comes before his anger. He’s looking for purpose, family, success, somewhere he fits, and eventually finds a voice willing to provide an answer. Rossi also became fascinated by the amount of media people now absorb almost unconsciously. “We’re constantly ingesting voices, and I don’t think we know the ramifications of what that does to our thinking and who we become.”
Rossi and the filmmakers gradually move Simon from frustration and helplessness toward anger and violence, while Perlman’s radio host deliberately resists an easy political classification. His rhetoric attacks government, elites and perceived enemies from different directions, but the message Simon ultimately hears is simpler: there’s a “them” responsible for what has gone wrong in his life. “A lot of people don’t even know who they’re mad at,” Rossi said. “They’re just mad, and they don’t know exactly who it is.”
Rossi talks enthusiastically about John Cassavetes, Gena Rowlands and the independent filmmaking generation that produced movies like “Pi,” “Pulp Fiction” and “Reservoir Dogs.” After more than two decades as a working actor, he says he’s become more willing to gamble on projects that challenge him rather than simply following the opportunities that come with being part of successful franchises. “I had to bet on myself more and take more chances,” Rossi said. “I have one shot at this. I have one shot to define what kind of artist I’m going to be here.”
Rossi spoke with Awards Focus about producing and starring in “Come With Me,” building Simon’s transformation in stages, what he learned from actors like Gena Rowlands and why independent films remain such an important part of the career he wants to build. “I want to be part of films that make people discuss things,” he said. “That’s what art is supposed to do: elicit conversation.” “Come With Me” is now available to rent or purchase digitally through Apple TV, Amazon Video and Fandango at Home.
Awards Focus: We could talk about so many things, but because of the timing of the release of “Come With Me,” I want to spend most of our time talking about that film. You’ve worked with some of the cast and crew before. Can you give me some background on how the film came together?
Theo Rossi: My producing partner on it, Demetrius Stear, who I absolutely love, we met on a really crazy movie years and years ago. It was when Bruce Willis was doing all those movies, and it was right before I did “Emily the Criminal.” I really wanted to work with Bruce because I love the history of Hollywood. There are so few of these giant movie stars left among us, like Michael Douglas and Julia Roberts, and then there are all the people connected to them. Perlman worked with Brando on “The Island of Dr. Moreau.” There’s this beautiful lineage of Hollywood, and I just love movies so much.
So I was doing this movie with Bruce, playing his son, and I met Demetrius. We had planned on doing some movies together. He said, “I’m transitioning into producing. I know you produce movies.” So we did one or two, and then he came to me with “Come With Me.” He was like, “This is it, bro.” All the movies we love, “The King of Comedy,” “Taxi Driver,” “Falling Down,” “Straight Time.” Then he pointed to “Emily the Criminal.” He was like, “These kinds of movies. This is what we want to make.”
He said, “This is the one.” I read it and thought, wow, this is going to rattle some cages. It’s going to make people think. I’ve always been in love with the idea of conversation around film. I’m a big Cassavetes fan. I love conversation. I love when it’s not direct. It has to be talked about. There’s going to be a debate.
I think certain films do that, and I think fewer films do that nowadays. A lot of them are pretty paint-by-numbers. Here’s what it is. Here’s what you get. You’re not really surprised. I just thought, let’s do it. The more I can put myself in a position to create conversation, the better.
My whole thought whenever I make something is that I want all the people I know in it. Going back to Cassavetes, Ben Gazzara, Gena Rowlands, Seymour Cassel. I like a company. I started in theater. I like having people around because I believe great actors can play any role.
I like actors who have multiple gears. I feel like over the last few years, actors have been leaning into one gear, to a point where some of them almost say the same line in every movie. I think it’s really odd because I came up a very different way, where it was like, stretch yourself. Play everything. Be as different as possible.
The guys and girls I surround myself with, I learned this with Aubrey Plaza in “Emily the Criminal” and Cristin Milioti in “The Penguin,” are actors who are really taking chances. So Ronnie Gene Blevins, obviously Perlman, who is such a legend, and everybody else down to the supporting roles who came into the film were actors’ actors. That was how it all came together.
AF: You talk about switching gears. In “The Penguin,” you’re playing opposite someone who is going down a spiral. In this film, you take on that role yourself. What was it like to put on that hat, and how did you get into Simon’s head and stay there through such an intense role?
Rossi: I try to look at every character, even if they’re the villain or the worst person to the exterior audience, as believing they’re doing the right thing. They’re trying their best.
When I looked at Simon, I thought, what is it about him? He just wants to find his place, and he’s looking anywhere for it. Is it being a dad? Is it having a family? Is it being great at work? I mirrored that into not just my own life, but so many people I know who are trying to find where they fit in this world before the book ends. Who are we supposed to be? Sometimes we wind up in these places and we’re not even sure if that’s where we’re supposed to be. Maybe I was supposed to do this.
That was what I leaned into with him. He was just desperately looking.
In the modern world we live in, we have voices in our heads all the time without even realizing it. We’re listening to YouTube. We’re listening to podcasts. We’re listening to something all the time, especially three-hour podcasts and all this stuff. We’re constantly ingesting voices, and I don’t think we know the ramifications of what that does to our thinking and who we become. We might start doing things subconsciously without even knowing we’re doing them.
I think Simon, someone who’s longing, is the perfect test case. He was longing for a place, and he found this radio host who is subversive, or whatever he is, because he says things that make sense and he says things that are wild. In a way, it comes off culty. The way Ron speaks, the voice seduces people. Some people have a way of doing that.
The way I approached Simon was as this guy who’s a little lost and just wants to find his place. I know so many people like that.
AF: As the film evolves, you pick up that Perlman’s character probably leans more toward the conservative, right-wing side of things, but you don’t necessarily start there. It’s fairly low-key, and at times his antagonist seems to be the middle class rather than simply the left or right. How intentional was it to make sure the viewer’s entry into the film wasn’t necessarily about politics or which side they were on?
Rossi: Completely, because he really does go after both. He speaks about the coastal elites, and then he speaks about government being the problem.
This is a big thing that happens, not so much in radio anymore, even though AM radio is still wildly popular and people don’t think about it. I know because I listened to a ton of it for this film. They find a way to get into everybody’s brain. They find what hooks you. They’re throwing all the different stuff at the wall to see what sticks with the listener.
When his rhetoric was being written and spoken, we didn’t want to pick a side. We wanted to let him speak in a way where we could see who it was going to attract. That’s why a lot of people are like, “This isn’t saying one thing or the other. Is it pro-gun? Is it anti-gun? Is it pro-politics? Is it anti-government?”
It’s saying that the problem is your existence, that you are not one of “them,” whoever “them” are. That’s where it really gets people, because that’s what’s happening to so many people. A lot of people don’t even know who they’re mad at. They’re just mad, and they don’t know exactly who it is.
To me, without healthy debate, without conversations, that’s where the problem comes from. That’s what we really wanted to spotlight.
AF: One of the things the film and your performance do particularly well is show Simon’s internal progression toward violence. We get these long sequences at the shooting range, and the change is very subtle. Early on, we don’t know much about his backstory other than a workplace incident where he says he was defending himself. How did you think about that progression from someone who seems relatively stable to someone who becomes increasingly violent?
Rossi: What a great analysis and a great question. I was just thinking about this today.
He seemingly is this run-of-the-mill regular guy going about his life. How do we jump from that to where he goes? Unlike a lot of the characters we talk about, whether it’s Jack from “The Shining,” Travis Bickle, Arthur Fleck, Rupert Pupkin in “The King of Comedy” or Michael Douglas in “Falling Down,” they have some pre-existing issue.
With Simon, there’s nothing. But what we do hear about is that workplace incident, where he says, “I was defending myself. I was defending someone. He said this, so I did this.”
What that tips you off to is that there was a violent action to remedy a situation.
Then, once he gets ahold of a gun, this is a guy who has never shot a gun before, and he starts to see the power and the seduction of that. He starts thinking, “Oh, wow.” Then there’s the break-in. The healthcare system doesn’t take care of his friend Gary’s daughter. He starts to realize that he’s helpless, and now he’s looking at all these weapons that have been given to him. He’s felt the power at the gun range. He feels like he’s a defender. He says, “I feel compelled to defend us.” From who? From them.
He’s trying to find any power in a world where he feels so helpless. That’s where the anger rises. Then he feels violated by the break-in. He feels violated by his boss and not getting the promotion. Now he’s starting to find anger and rage.
When we were creating the character, I thought of him in three stages. He had to build into it through his lack of sleep, the way I made him look, his eyes. We did certain things with his makeup and his hair. He was literally starting to unravel. But while he’s unraveling and getting weaker, the rage is getting stronger.
I made him more aggressive, and that’s when he finally pushes the guy at the radio station and says, “You need to listen to me.” He needs someone to listen to him. That’s where his rage really starts to come.
Now I understand so much more when I see these news stories about how this seemingly normal person did this thing. People say, “It’s so out of character.” But how long was it building? You don’t know all the little things that happened.
AF: Along those lines, something I found interesting is that Simon’s initial triggers are less about what’s happening directly to him and more about what’s happening to his best friend and the people he cares about. Was that always part of the script? It would have been much more straightforward to have everything happen to Simon, but instead he’s reacting to what happens to the people around him.
Rossi: I think about empathetic people and how they take on what’s around them. With Gary, played by the great Ronnie Gene Blevins, who I do every movie with, Simon takes on what’s happening around him and almost adds it into his own story.
There’s this moment where he’s looking at Gary’s daughter, and you can see that he’s physically and mentally so impacted by it, but he doesn’t know how to express it. He says to Gary’s wife, played by Marion Kerr, “I’m glad she’s okay,” but now he’s taking that on. He’s adding it into all these other things.
Ultimately, when what happens with Gary happens, Simon goes and checks on him as a friend. He really is taking it on. He’s saying, “I’m just here for you.”
So that initial build isn’t about what’s happening to him. It’s about what’s happening to everyone else. Then, when all of that is stripped away, things start happening to him. That empathetic quality starts to turn inward. When there’s no one left to care for, you start to lose yourself too. He had no one left at that point.
AF: There’s another scene where the camera stays on you for a long time after Simon leaves work. It’s essentially a profile shot, and there’s very little dialogue, but we can see so much happening internally. How did you approach that scene, and what did you want audiences to take from it?
Rossi: When we’re doing these indie films, and I do a lot of them, you have such limited time that you have to get really creative in the short space you have.
I’m the type of actor where the fewer words I can say, the better, because I believe the eyes never lie. I feel like everything can be conveyed in your face. We go back to Gena Rowlands in “A Woman Under the Influence.” Everything is played in her face. Everything. Peter Falk, everything is played in his face. Michael Corleone, everything is played in his face. He’s barely speaking sometimes.
It’s easy to get caught up in words. I always find moments where I’m not speaking. I actively try to get rid of words in a script when I get it. I go, “I don’t need to say that. I don’t need to say that. I need to say that.” Writers don’t like it, but I think it’s better for the audience if they’re paying attention and watching.
In that exact scene, we had very limited time, and I felt that something in him wanted to come out. He was almost trying to eat himself, like he was physically trying to eat away what was coming out of him. All of that stuff that’s rising and coming up in him, he’s trying to get rid of, and he can’t.
It’s like when we’re crying and we try to stop, or we’re angry and we pace. You’re trying to mitigate the feeling that’s inside you. His was this rage of, “I’m going to go do whatever I’m going to go do, and I have to get rid of that.”
I thought, how can I manifest that physically? He was almost trying to extinguish himself.
AF: You’ve obviously been part of some major projects, and the easier path might be to stay within the Marvel and DC worlds and other big IP. But you’ve chosen to do a number of independent films recently, including this, “Bruton” and “The Saviors.” As you think about the projects you take on now, what draws you to something? What kind of work are you looking for?
Rossi: It’s a bit of a cliché, but it’s the stuff that scares the hell out of you.
When I got started in this, it was coming off an era of film that was almost like the second New Hollywood in a way, with Quentin and everything happening at Sundance. There was this great vibe around indie film. I was finding my favorite movies, Aronofsky with “Pi” and all these films that were really taking chances.
I was so intrigued by independent film because the acting I was seeing, even in the ones that went mainstream, like “Pulp Fiction” and “Reservoir Dogs,” was so interesting to me. The characters felt so real.
Studio films too. Marty, everything he’s done. But I’ve found that over maybe the last 10 or 12 years, it’s become a lot more spectacle and a lot less character.
Everything’s great. Whatever gets my kids through school, I think it’s great. I’m a working actor through and through. But I had to bet on myself more and take more chances. I have one shot at this. I have one shot to define what kind of artist I’m going to be here.
The artists I’ve always gravitated toward are the people who do it all but take chances. They take leaps. Aubrey, when we did “Emily,” was taking leaps. Cristin in “The Penguin,” like we just talked about.
I had to figure out how I was going to do that and not just be somewhere else and maybe have a boatload of money, which would be nice, but then have a certain level of regret down the road about the artist I had always envisioned myself being.
These films that I’ve been fortunate enough to be a part of, or create or get going, have all been in that realm, from the first one I produced in 2014, “Bad Hurt,” with me and Karen Allen.
I’ve always wanted stories where you can go, “What would I do if I was Simon? Would I be impacted like that?” Then you can have conversations with your friends after. You can go for drinks or food after the movie and say, “What did you think about that?”
I’ve found that a lot of films I’ve been watching don’t really elicit that kind of thing anymore. It’s no knock on them. They’re almost like going on a ride where you go, “Wow, that was really great,” but I’m not going to think about this ever again, and I’m probably never going to watch it again.
I want to be part of films that make people discuss things. That’s what art is supposed to do: elicit conversation.
AF: In some of the projects people know you from, you’re part of an ensemble. With “Come With Me,” you’re really carrying the film. Did this role stretch you in ways that other roles haven’t?
Rossi: No. I’ve been so fortunate that even when I’ve been in ensembles, some of my characters have been so singled out that they’ve almost felt that way.
Most of the time when I was working on “Sons,” I was there alone. Juice was alone a lot. I felt that way on “Luke Cage.” In “The Penguin,” it was obviously me and Cristin, but he really had his own world going on.
I’ve been very fortunate that a lot of my characters have had multiple dimensions, even when they’re in these grand, big ensembles. They’ve had a lot going on with them.
With this, no, I never felt stretched. I felt obligated to the audience because I started as an extra in this game 25 or 26 years ago. I’m a fan. I’m such a fan of not just movies, but art in general.
I feel so obligated when I’m making things to make sure that I’m giving more than anything I could ever give, where I’m literally passing out at the end of the day. I’m not really in control of the edit, even if I’m sitting in on it. I’m not in control of how a company releases it. I’m not in control of the date it comes out. I’m not in control of what movie it goes against. I’m not in control of how reviewers review it.
I’m only in control of what I do for the audience and what I do for that character.
I go into every single project, whether it shoots in 10 days or it’s a movie like “Carry-On” that’s an 87- or 90-day shoot, with the exact same thought: I’m going to leave every ounce of me in this character, and I hope I get it right. I hope my interpretation is right for who this person is today.
Sometimes I don’t get it right.
AF: September 4 is listed as the release date for the film. How will audiences be able to see it?
Rossi: Right now, the way it works in our current world, it’s a limited release in a few major cities, and then obviously we’ll see if that grows.
The main way right now is Apple, Amazon and all the VOD sites where people can buy it, analyze it and watch it on their 175-inch screens at home, or whatever people have nowadays.
Go watch the movie and then have a talk with someone about it. Hate it, love it, feel something. In a world that’s trying to mitigate feeling into numbness, I’m like, feel something. That’s what we’re trying to elicit with a film like this.
AF: I hope so too. Thanks and good luck with the release.
Rossi: Of course, brother. I really appreciate you. Enjoy the rest of your day.